Our Personal Shawshank

In today's episode, we're going to be discussing the Shawshank Redemption, which is a great film. A lot of people out there have seen it, hopefully. Uh one of my all-time favorites. I think it's a movie that a lot of other people have enjoyed over the years. Now, the reason we're talking about this movie is that um I think a lot of times when we think about spirituality, we think it's gotta be something, you know, where you're reading some intense text or in, you know, at a church or in a temple or elsewhere. But I think the the reality is that you can have an experience, uh a spiritual experience, and learn something about spirituality even from something as simple as watching a movie. And uh in the case of the Shawshank Redemption, I think there's actually a lot of really, really interesting themes to to pick apart in that movie, uh, which may carry lessons for all of us. Um so we're we're excited to do this episode. Hopefully uh there's some folks out there who get some some benefit from it. Uh joining us for this episode, my man, Neil Desai, Dr. Neil Desai, uh ophthalmologist in the New York City area, uh longtime friend of mine, big fan of of the Shawshank Redemption. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, a couple decades at this point. Yeah. So when we look at at the Shawshank Redemption, there are there are just a tremendous number of themes in there that I think we can we can pick apart. Um and maybe just starting with the character of Andy Dufresne, uh played brilliantly by by Tim Robbins. You know, Andy is a character who who really has in many ways has his humanity stripped from him due to the process of being in prison, and yet still retains a very, very hopeful outlook on life and never gives up on the fact that there there are some shreds of of goodness within humanity. And maybe just there, yeah. I mean Ray, Neil, you know, just your your thoughts on Andy as a character and what what he went through.

I think it was a fire character development. Um I mean, being raped in prison is crazy. Yeah. I mean, that is like the most like that probably strips everything of you. You know what I mean? Like it ego, um, like your dignity, your sex your sexuality, everything, and just like the fact that he like we was talking about earlier, like he probably convinced himself at one point that oh maybe I did pull the trigger. Right. Just because he's been in there for so long, you know what I mean? And didn't get a sense of didn't actually realize until like until the guy, the the Tommy guy, you know what I mean, when he came in there and he told him, Oh, like, you know, the story of the actual killer or whatever. And he was like, And it's when he remembered everything.

I mean, he was also raped by the judicial system, right? In that case, two life sentences. Yeah. Like, I mean, the only thing that I can think of is just I would have maybe one of my issues too, is I would have just pure anger, you know. Like I would I would just be pissed in every possible way. Two life sentences.

I mean for a crime he didn't commit.

Yeah, for something he didn't commit, you know, I would I would be off the wall. So like I mean, that would have like taken me right away, but it's interesting because the way Red describes him, he said he should just seem like a guy taking a walk in the park, you know.

So you know, that alone is I think um what do what do they decide as uh life sentences?

What's the trigger for it?

No, no, like what like how many years is the life?

It's just I guess it's just until you Yeah, that's a good point. Why would you give him two life sentences? I mean, that just you know you never get it. Exactly. Exactly.

But also like at that time, right? When I when I you know, because I never watched um I never watched Shaw Shank Redemption. So when you talk when he Until recently. Yeah, when I watched it last night. So when he talked about it, I thought it was the Green Mile. As I was watching, I'm like, This is the Green Mile, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was texting him about it. I'm like, oh my, this is something something totally different. You know what I mean? Um kind of a similar vibe.

Yeah, this is where the age gap shows up.

But I'm I'm watching it and I'm like, he was like, as you said, like he was raped by the judicial system, and like at that time they had nothing, you know what I mean? Like it was like 1940s, uh yeah, there wasn't cell phones, no anything. So like you did that, you know what I mean? Like that's basically how it was. Like, oh, I saw I anybody could say something, you know what I mean? And basically, like that's probably gonna be like what it is.

Sometimes I feel like the way the system works, people just want quick answer and move on, you know. So like it still happens, wrongful convictions, convictions still happen, you know, and so like with all the evidence. So I think probably a lot more likely kind of back then as well.

Yeah. My question is you know, if if if either of you were wrongfully accused and put in prison for so you know for something, how do you how do you think you would react? I mean, would you be able to conduct yourself with the kind of grace he did, or would you flip out? That's what I'm saying.

I would just be pure, I'd just see red. Yeah, pure, pure rage. I'm I'm sure at that at some point that would just turn into kind of loss of hope, you know, or or like you know, that would just turn into just being you know, dejection essentially.

But I don't know if I could do jail, so I'd probably end my life before I went into jail.

Yeah, we were talking sorry, me and my girlfriend were just talking about that. We're talking about a doctor that got um convicted, and he actually, you know, unfortunately committed suicide before. Um, but I yeah, that'd be on the table, man.

Yeah, I mean, I I just don't think I could do it. I don't think I could sit in that cell for 365 over and over and over again. Like at a point like in the movie, like, dude, they were like, I mean, you kind of like lost track of years, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were at 10 at one point, especially guys as cute as us. We would survive in jail.

I mean, bro, it just I don't, I don't, I just I couldn't, I would not be able to do it, bro. Like, I think that's why I live so like straight, you know what I mean? Because I'm like, yeah, bro, I'm not doing anything that like is remotely going to there's not even gonna be a sniff of it.

Also, it's just not worth it, right? Yeah, it's just not worth it.

So then the next character we want to talk about is is the character of the warden. Um, you know, an interesting character, especially within the context of of religion and and spirituality, because the warden uh kind of typifies the hypocritical, outward religious person, you know, the person who's constantly quoting scripture.

The essence of faking the funk. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like it was and so, yeah, and so we you know it's an interesting character study because you know he's there, he's constantly quoting the Bible, um, yet in practice, it's his his daily life is essentially lived in in contradiction to everything that that Jesus asked asks us to do.

Or or using like the vulnerability of people or sincerity of people with religion kind of as a tool against them, which is often done all the time, like tool of manipulation, you know. Right.

Um I mean he got what he deserved at end, to be honest with you. I mean, he probably deserved to be raped in jail too.

Like I'm not gonna hold you, but um but unfortunately, a pretty like standard prototype of of people, you know, of certain people, you know. Yeah, you know, yeah. Um that character was created because it exists, you know.

Yeah. Um you think it exists like now in the Judici J Jesus in prison?

No, I I think it exists all over the world, just like people you people using other people's sincere vulnerabilities against them, you know, like some someone may have faith. Someone may have, you know, really I think their faith is important to them and it's and it's sincere, and then someone using that vulnerability against them. I think I think that's that's that happens quite a bit for their for their profit for other reasons, you know. So that happens quite a bit.

Yeah.

Um, I think we're all probably guilty of it at some point in our lives too, you know.

I think so.

Even in even in the most minor ways, you know.

Yeah, and I think it's it's an interesting warning, you know, for for all of us to kind of you know really look hard at making sure we're not being hypocritical in these things, you know, because I think it's it's a very, very easy slope to start slipping down. Where you know, if you start to think that you're superior to others, you know, you can you can start justifying all kinds of Yeah, and and the mind is tricky like that.

We're great at just rationalizing things that we do, you know, and and and part of us doesn't realize it, you know. And that can really just that can take take a route. And at some point, maybe the warden was sincere, you know, in his faith. Maybe he was sincere like in the quotes that he put in his office, but I can you know that can slip really easy, you know.

I think uh I think at one point in the like beginning, middle of the movie, like when it first started, yeah, when the library was first getting like you know built, I feel like there was a little sincerity there.

But then when like he saw that he could profit off of any when the eyes get big and you see, hey, there's there's an open cookie jar right there. Let's let's just take a little nibble, you know, and then a nibble turns into stacking cookies.

He realized like how like how much of a genius this guy was, you know what I mean? Like, and because of that, he didn't want to let him go.

Yeah, you know, now that's my tool, you know. That's that's my access to the I texted GoPal.

I'm like, dude, this guy's doing all he's doing opposite prisons taxes, bro. Yeah, this is crazy, bro. Like, imagine doing everybody's taxes and you in jail. Like, what are we talking about here?

But it it gave him that access to privileges within to respect, you know, to like um nobody was gonna mess with him no more. Yeah, you know, give him protection. Um it allowed him to help his friends.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe one of the small messages, just like knowledge and education of how things work is is a good thing too, you know. Like it it provides you access.

Well one of the biggest reasons I wanted to discuss this this movie on on this episode is is uh a really, really interesting part of the movie is uh how the prisoners suffer from quote unquote institutionalization. Um and particularly the scene with with the older prisoner Brooks, um, which I think is to me is one of the hardest scenes to watch in the movie. But you know, this this idea that if you're in a prison long enough, eventually the prison becomes a home of sorts. Yeah. Um that that is routine. Routine, and that you you crave the stability of what it is. And and and in the movie, the character Brooks is uh, you know, within the prison is a respected, educated man. Outside the prison, you know, he's he's an ex-con with without a lot going for him. Um now the reason I think this is an interesting kind of aspect of the movie is that uh with within a lot of spiritual traditions, I'd say, particularly within within Hindu and Buddhist Buddhist thought, is this idea that we uh humans tend to self-create uh prisons, mental prisons. Right? That that we we construct identities that we like to have around us to keep us kind of safe and and warm, even if they're false identities. Um just curious from both of you whether you feel like in your life there have been aspects that have where you have created an identity to kind of keep yourself safe, even if it's not necessarily been to your to your own benefit.

That's a really tough, complex one, but kind of when you're talking about it. I think a bit about it is more identities that are associated with expectations, you know. I think um I think the one of the big traps is just expectations, expectations about how things should be, how people should be, you know, how the future should be, how you should be, you know, and um so I think for me, you know, that's often it still is, it always is. You have to kind of keep an eye on it a little bit. Um, but um yeah, I think expectations is maybe it's part of the part part of the same thing, but I think that's been like the biggest trap. But also, you know, I think it's both like a carrot, you know, in that it keeps you motivated, you know, it keeps you going, it keeps you maybe excited about things, but it's also I think an opportunity for um disillusionment or loss of hope if when things don't meet that or sadness or right, you know, people say emotion is an expectation mismatch, you know, like when it doesn't hit, you know, um, then it kind of I think becomes a trap, you know, a little bit. Right. Yeah.

When I'm at work or like you know, like when you get on the phone with like the doctor's office or something, I have this saying where like I put like I use my white voice.

Wait, wait, sorry, sorry. Wait, can you clarify on that a little bit? Like uh like this this voice, like this is like um No, but you say when you when you when you when you sorry when you call the doctor's office, you say?

Doctor's office or like just anything.

Any kind of like, yeah, sorry.

Yeah, like anything like professional, like like professional, the use the professional, like white voice.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't give me I think it's more funny you say you say and I get you and I get kind of how you're saying it, but I uh it's just funny hearing that from a white person. And I don't know if that's an okay label for you, but I'm half Puerto Rican, half Pican.

Okay, sorry, but that's right. You you feel like you've unified the identities now.

Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm good, I'm good now.

Like I'll say for for myself, I mean, I think I've talked about this before, but just you know, I'd say a few years ago, so much of my identity was wrapped up in my work persona, you know, and and uh you know, I think I really defined myself by it. And and the reality is there was a long stretch of time where I wasn't in finance, and yet, you know, it became a very comfortable identity, you know. And so I I don't know. I think it's a really interesting question of how how often are we living in self-created mental prisons?

Um I just had a qu so when you were talking about the doctor's office, you were saying those are like two different personas that you have, or like how how did that uh kind of um weave into um I guess the the question that Gopal was asking or the movie?

I mean, not really too much of like what he was talking about. I just think that like that's the only thing I can really think of that I do that like I try to like you know what I mean, like I mask or whatever it is. Okay, okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Other than that, I think I'm I think I'm pretty fine. You know what I mean? Hey, do you have uh do you have an appointment for uh April 4th or 3 p.m.? You know what I mean? My name's Raymond Scarduzio. Oh, you want burf, burf?

I I kind of want to I kind of want to touch upon a little bit of like what you were saying. Um uh, you know, you kind of said you had kind of like chosen your work persona and was kind of comfortable if fit, you know, you felt okay with it, it kind of got you where you want to go in a certain way. Right. Um, I think for me, I think you can call it whatever you want, but like I consider it a privilege. But I think growing up and even now I feel like just been put or put myself in a lot of different settings, you know, or different kind of cultural settings or subcultural settings, or um and I think that kind of lets you see how that persona can like change, you know, and how you can even how you interact changes, like the responses you get changes, like um that lets you see that it's kind of not this solid thing, it is this like really shaky, flexible, moving thing, you know, and it's like it's not as solid as a lot of people believe it to be, or that you know, a lot of people kind of just naturally evolve into like this one thing, but and it happens very slowly, yeah. It almost like petrifies, you know, and so like you don't even realize you're in it, and so I think being able to like that's why I think it's so important to like travel or to like step outside of your comfort zone because you see how fluid it really is, or or you can even say unstable in some ways. I think yeah, I think some people even crave I mean, I can say sometimes it makes me crave the stability of just like you know, a single sense of self or something like that.

Um yeah, and I think this is this is like a huge point of emphasis. Um, it's particularly in in Hindu philosophy and and Buddhist philosophy, is this idea is that the persona is essentially a false construct. You know, it's like uh it's a very temporary construct, right? Like I could say, oh, I was in finance, or you could say I I'm a physician, yeah, right. But the reality is there was a number of years in your life where you were not a physician.

Yeah, right.

There'll be a point when you're retired, when I'm retired, right? When we're when we're not our professional identities, right? But if most of us, like if if somebody just came up to you and asked, I'm I'm gonna ask this to both you. You know, Neil, who are you? Ray, who are you? Like, how would you define yourself in in one sentence? You can't, man. It's a that's a tough, tough, tough thing to say. And I feel like most people would say, oh, I'm I'm they would say my profession.

Ray, you know, who are you?

Yeah. I always thought I think I'm a regular guy. Regular loving guy. You know what I mean?

What does that mean? Like, what do you mean by like you're a regular guy? Like, what is a regular guy?

Regular guy, bro. But I think you guys have like pro like professional, professional, like like you guys went to school, you know. I'm just regular, you know what I mean?

Like interesting.

I'm like the average citizen in life. Oh, okay.

I think I disagree with that.

But like you know me, you know me on a more intellectual level, you know what I mean? Like, like, yeah, I can think about that, or like I could go to those those places and and intellectually like with you, like on a feeling level, but I don't know what it's like to be an eye doctor, or you know, like you know what you did, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just a regular guy.

I guess I got I got two questions. Do you do you think being like how do you perceive like what a regular guy is? Like, do you think that's a good thing, a bad thing, or it is what it is? And number two, do you think like maybe someone in a specialized profession is that different from a regular guy?

It's like yes and no. Like, yeah, obviously you the money aspect you guys make, so like that takes you uh up and above, but like you guys are. I mean, if you strip that, we're just regular, right? Yeah, you know what I mean? That's the only thing that like so it's the money that kind of changes things. It's like, you know what I mean? Like you guys talk different, you guys walk different, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like I I mean, yeah, like you know, I dress pretty decent and like you know, I I smell pretty good, but like you know what I mean? Like I I don't know what it's like to be the upper echelon of I think like society, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I yeah, I uh I mean I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. I I I I I'm gonna say this very, very strongly. All of that is like total BS.

Yeah, as we've been talking about in every in almost every episode, like it really doesn't matter. We don't take the money at the end of the at the end of the day.

What's funny is like, I mean, I I I feel like a regular guy doing, you know, like you know, I have we all have insecurity, you know, we're still anxious about the days. Yeah, I agree with Goldpal 100%, but at the same time, I don't know what it's like to not have been, you know, um uh a doctor. Or I guess I do know because like I have found things like when I meet people and hang with people, like I used to walk my dog in the morning on the beach every day with a with an awesome crew. Um, and you know, we just have casual conversations about ocean, whatever it is, you know, our dogs. Um, I do find once you tell someone you're a certain profession, like it it changes the dynamic because then like all these assumptions kind of fill in, and this idea of who you are fill in, and then it really changed the dynamic. It's kind of really surprising to me. And that kind of comes back on you, and like, you know, that that kind of factors into who you think you are and and your identity as well. Like it's this really complex like circle, like interactive circle.

Yeah. Yeah, I think again, the thing I would really stress is that from a philosophical standpoint, and even observationally, we can all say this, you know, the these identities, these personas we have are very, very temporary.

They kind of almost like creep up on you, though. You know, it happens slowly, you don't realize it's happening, you're kind of paying attention to the ball the whole time, but there are other factors, there are other players, there are referees, whatever, but you're paying and so they kind of creep up on you, you know, and um the you know, when transitions happen slowly, you don't even notice they're happening, right? You don't even notice all these slow subtle changes that are happening. So I think they kind of sneak up, and because they happen gradually, you don't realize the the kind of lack of real substance that they have, you know, like because it feels solid because it's happening slowly, but um, you don't realize like how changeable it is and how quickly changeable it is, you know. Yeah. Um I will say though, I don't, you know, I think even at a certain point in time, we still all play different roles. You know, so we're all playing different roles in our different like relationships are really great in that way too, and that it does show you the dynamicness of the sense of identity because we're playing different roles. We're a son, we're a father, we're a father, we're you know, whatever it is. We are. So we still play different roles. And that's why it's nice having old friends to keep you in check and remind you of maybe some of your older roles and your newer roles and things like that. I think family and old friends is so important in that way. Kind of reminds you of who you are, who you were, and maybe the string that threaded all those different kind of weird beads of who we are, you know.

I like that. We should like talk more about Brooks, though. We were going to talk about that. Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll what do you want to talk about? He spent 50 years in jail. Yeah. And as soon as he got out, it doesn't really give you a time lapse of like, was it a day or a week or two? We just know that he had a job for a little while. He sucked at bagging. Yeah. Yeah. And then he wrote that letter. We don't know how long that letter from when he wrote it to it was received in prison. Right. What it was. And then he just like offed himself. Yeah. You know? And like 50, imagine being fit, he he probably spent, yeah. I mean, it I don't think it says like when he got in there, but I can only assume like maybe he was like 20.

Right. He he also had like that moment of panic before like because he wanted to stay in. That fear was already there. Like it's not like he got out and then something happened. Like he already had he knew, you know, or he maybe predicted, you know, whatever it was, but he had that moment beforehand too that was pretty like. Can I ask you guys this?

Yeah. If you knew that you were gonna get out and you spent 50 years in jail, would you commit another crime in jail to stay longer, or would you just try to get out?

I think I would try to get out, but I I don't know. It's easy to say that. You know, if you've been in there for 50 years, maybe you know it becomes the identity.

Yeah, it was a routine for him. He was the librarian.

Yeah, you know, he had a position of status, and a crow. Yeah, people that knew him, people that loved him. You know, like if I was like really content in there, I'd probably do I wouldn't kill him. I wouldn't put a I wouldn't put a knife to my friend's neck, but I mean I'd probably do something to roll a little longer, maybe. Who knows? Start a fight real quick. Yeah, you know.

I mean, I lived without women for 50 years. You might as well just like finish it, you know what I mean? Like I don't need them no more. You know what I mean? Like I would really love to like known like how many days it was where he like realized and was like, I can't do this. Yeah.

So I I just had a question for you. You you were talking about kind of like being institutionalized and then like the fear of like what do you what do you mean by that? You know, like um like kind of when when the idea is presented, like he was institutionalized and now he was this fear associated with being on the outside after being, you know, after kind of being kind of almost being part of the walls of the prison, you know. So like um what yeah, what kind of what what do you mean by that, I guess, you know, or or or why do you think he he he killed himself?

I think it's pretty clear it's because he he had a very, very distinct identity when he was in prison, right? And then outside the prison walls that identity is blown up. There's nothing, yeah.

He was just a he was just a the bagger or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and again, this is why, you know, I think it's an interesting question is is is are we in somewhat of a similar situation where we you know we live within the prison of an identity which is very, very limited.

I agree, but I think it's like something a little bit more rich than that. Like, you know, sure, that identity, but that I think to use the word just identity is a little kind of dismissive because like he had people he ate with every day. Yeah, he had a richness of relationships, had people that knew him, people that loved him, people that understood him, like people that knew what it was like to commit a crime, go to jail, still accept him for it, still love him for it, still like, you know, like it it it he had relationships, you know, and I think he was seen, you know, the term that a lot of people like to use these days. And um he was loved, you know, and I think um I think you know those obviously do create our identity, but he lost that lifeline to, you know, to people that knew him and loved him, you know. I think that that's a big part of part of him. Like I would kill myself too, man, if I didn't have I hate to say it, but like if if it's like being alone on the planet with no people, you know.

Yeah, he probably outlived all his family.

You know, like our our relations are so important. Like he I love that I think there's a scene where he's walking on the street and people are just passing by and cars are passing by and everything is different. Like he was there surrounded by people, but completely alone, you know. Yeah, I think COVID did that to a lot of people, you know. It's like yeah, the isolation was probably the hardest part of COVID, you know, and so um I think it's also that just being cut off from the room. Yeah, man.

Um like they use the re rehabilitated word a lot. Yeah. When do you think too many years is too many years? Like, do you think that a life sentence is suffice? I don't know.

I think it's case by case, but I don't know.

It's I guess suffice for what? For for the idea of re rehabilitation, you mean? Yeah, like well, I think that's just a great word to use for like back and years is a lot of time.

Yeah, yeah. Or like even um Red, he he did like what, 30, 40? Yeah, yeah. And he killed somebody when he was like 20, right?

But I think that's you know, that's a great example. Like, I think one thing you do not, you know, um read about or hear about too much in, I think, in kind of spirituality reading or that kind of um branch or subtopic is you don't hear the word accountability a lot. Like, like taking a cold hard look at yourself. And like the I really like that scene um with with Red at the end, you know, with with the with the prol board. Because it it kind of showed like he took that look, you know, and took him, you know, he took that look, he kind of separated himself from it, he made change, he accepted it, he made changes, he progressed, he was a different person. Um so he kind of stressed the importance of that and kind of moving past that. I think that's that's rehabilitation, right? That's that's um so however long it takes for that, but there's no timeline for that. It's not like that's it takes this amount of time for this to, you know, it really when and if you even hit that point, you know. I think that's rehabilitation.

I mean, me as a person, like if I was that person making that call to have people go out into the real world again, like if you do 30, 40 years and like there's no incident, and like we have like we're mom and we're monitoring you, yeah, and you're like a upstanding citizen inside this prison, like you're yeah, like he was basically did almost every every job that he could he could do, you know what I mean? Like this guy gotta go, you know what I mean? Like the world, the world that he's stepping out to, yeah, he went in there when he was like 19. Like he went in, he went into prison when he was like 19 years.

I love when he talks about himself as a 19. It's like I would tell this kid this, or I would, you know, like he it's almost like he separates himself from that kid and he almost has compassion for him, you know, which is which is which is really nice. Um but I think I guess that's why, you know, that kind of annual prol board thing is because every year you get you know, I mean, if it's done right, I would imagine.

He just kept saying like the word that word rehabilitated. Yeah. And then the last time he was finally talking about like the regret and the counterbility and the exact thing.

And he and you know, it's in at least in the scene, it you know, you assume that they like sensed his sincerity too, you know. Yeah.

One last thing we you know we want to hit on uh in regards to the movie, and it's an important aspect of the movie. In fact, it's in it's in the title, the the redemption part of the Shawshank redemption. I think you know, obviously it's a fictional story, but there's I think a very, very powerful message within it of the fact that it felt real. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and of the fact that anyone can can redeem themselves, regardless of what they've done in their life. Um, you know, it may take a lot of pain and suffering to get there, but um, you know, for me, it I don't know. I I mean I just I love the movie, I love the way it ends. Yeah, you know, obviously, you know, Red commits a crime by by skipping, you know, uh skipping out. Yeah, but it you know, it's I I think it's a it's a hopeful message at the end that you know there there may be a path for anyone, even if they are in a prison to rehabilitate themselves.

Did Andy do the crime no one skipping out though? Yeah, I think he served his time, bro.

Yeah, Andy, I mean he didn't deserve to be there, right? Yeah, yeah.

He crawled in 500 yards of shit to get out of there. Like he was calculating, bro. Like he had the thing wrapped up on a bag. That was fire. Yeah, that was cool.

That was that was really cool. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just the whole thing, like the poster, the rock through the like the whole thing was like kind of badass, frankly.

I'm just saying, like when I was thinking, right, like as he it was explaining, I'm like, how did he get the gravel and dirt every single like every day out of the thing? And he showed it, I was like, that's fire, bro. The guy thought about every every possibility, right? You know what I mean? To to like keep, you know what I mean, for what, 20, 30 years?

And and the movie was well done. You know, my girlfriend was kind of mentioning we I've only I've seen it, I think I've seen it fully once, but it'd be interesting to go back and watch it again and like kind of link all those little parts where he was like slipping sand out, getting the rock hammer, kind of asking for the poster, you know. Like it was I think the movie was well done and slowly presenting those those little parts to he knew it was um it was achievable when he like touched it.

Yeah, and then kind of easily broke slopped off a little bit. He was probably chip.

But like he was he was thoughtful and also like it's something that obviously took patience and time. Like, we want everything now, now, now, now, now you want to get it down to jail now. I think I would that's where like if I it happened to me, like the anger would come in because I want it now and I'm not getting it now, I'm not getting it now. But like to have like just the composure and patience and to do it slowly, knowing it's gonna take long, knowing there's so many moving parts, knowing there's a risk, but still doing it anyway in this slow, calculated, thoughtful way, I think, and being patient about it and pulling it off, you know, and kind of having fun through the process despite everything that's happening, you know.

Like that's I think before um that Tommy guy got there, I think he was he was willing to do the time.

Yeah. I got a question for you, Gopes. Like, hope is such a big part of this movie, right? Yes. The hope is like kind of this really important underlying theme. Um, but you don't that's also not a word that you really come across too much in, I think, um, at least in some of the spiritual reading that I've done or some like things around like Hindu philosophy or Hindu whatever that I've that I've read personally. Um I don't know if I've interacted with it in kind of reading about other religions, but um I was just wondering, like, where do you think that hope kind of falls into place within um religious literature or spiritual literature or whatever?

Well, I think I mean you could call it a hope, or you know, again, in traditions they would say it's a it's a truth, is that you know, all with the consciousness with within all of us is something much, much bigger than you know what what we believe it is. And so you can say it's hope, you know, whatever whatever. I I think every human being has a very, very bright destiny in front of them, you know, once they're they're ready to get there.

Wow. That's that's a real beautiful thought, frankly. It's real optimistic, man. I I actually really like that dude.

Yeah, but but I think the the question is you know, this this idea of hope, you could you can there's kind of like irrational hope where you're just like, you know, you it's just not you're not thinking things through. Or yeah, short-sighted or like yeah, or there's the more, you know, and again, here here's a case where where Andy, you know, he never gave up hope, but he also never gave up his own effort. And he and for 20 years he took you know small amounts of gravel and dirt outside of his prison cell to get so that he could get out of the prison, right? So it's one thing to have hope, but what are you what are you doing every day to get yourself to where you want to be? It's not enough to just sit there and just say, I, you know, uh hope, hope, hope, hope. I mean, you you gotta you gotta do something for it, you know.

Uh what's what are your thoughts on on just that word hope? Like in terms of like prison or like any anything like there's how you've interacted with and in whatever you've read or heard with regards to religion or in life or whatever it means. I'm just it's kind of like for me, I was just like, I was thinking about it because you know that the word hope is mentioned a lot. I'm like, what is what is what does hope kind of mean? You know, I just I just started asking myself that.

I mean, I really don't know what it would like to be in prison and hope to get out of prison. But I mean, I think I have, I think we have all have hope in some way. Like my I hope to I don't know that better paying job. I don't you know what I mean, like just like simple things. Like hope I hope I really do I this is something that I thought about. I I hope to at least live to 75. That is an actual hope of mine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you are you are you taking the steps to get there?

Yeah, I mean I mean from my doctor says, besides me being obese, I mean I'm pretty healthy. Yeah, good. You know what I mean? Like my my heart's good, you know.

And also you're you're smiling, man. That that's a big part of it, I think.

You know, like so uh for our uh our donation today, Neil Neil has selected an organization that's uh near and dear to his heart. So do you want to Yeah?

No, I I think um one of the things I I kind of want to, you know, kind of touching back on Brooks and stuff like that is um I think the thing that allows or helps people to get through parts of their lives is is just social support, you know, like having family, having friends. Like I think the the reason Brooks didn't make it on the outside is he couldn't take his friends with him and his family with him, you know, he couldn't take those people with him. I think if they were with him, they might have had a good time together. Who knows? You know? Um, and so I think um social support is just so important. I think it's it's it's the thing that decides whether someone makes it through a tough time in their life or they don't. Um, and I think um my karate school in my sensei was was part of all of the village, you know, for me at least. And I'm just so always grateful to them. Um and so my friend Cheryl continued this organization, Karate for Change, where they provide that for people, whether it's financial support, you know, whatever, you know, whatever people need to kind of advance in their lives, move forward, or kind of enrich their lives through karate, through traveling, through going to tournaments and whatever. So um, you know, I really respect and love the work that they're doing. You have participated in some of their events and they're fun. It's good stuff, man. It's good vibes, good family vibes, too. So um, yeah, I just want to give them a little boost and very grateful to Gopah and his family for um being willing to support that also. This organization is karate for change. Yeah, karate for change. Um, Cheryl, she works along with a lot of great people. Um uh she competed internationally, like national champ international champion in karate, um, and kind of is now supporting other people to help them get there as well. Um, and also my co dojo mate, I've I've thrown some punches at her and she's throwing some cakes at me, and she's she's she's a great homie and a great person. So um karate for change, yeah.

Yeah, it's been a good episode. So Ray Ray, are you ready for our minute? Yeah.

Oh my god.

Dude, that's so crazy how long a minute feels.

Was that a minute? Yeah, it's crazy. I mean some of them like, bro, that's not a minute sometimes, bro.

That feels like two that was cr no, I felt like a lot that was nuts, dude. But that was cool. It was cool to do that with you guys too, man. That was neat.

Yeah.

Ray, you got our quote quote for us to wrap up.

It's a uh it's from Shawshank Redemption. It's from the letter that he wrote while when um Red went to the when Red went to the the place that he told him to go to.

Oh yeah.

And he said, uh, remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

Oh yeah, that's the the no good. I I really like that. No good thing ever dies, man. No good I love that. I love that a lot, actually, because you know, sometimes we kind of wonder what's what's either our effect in the world or um you know, you you have someone that you love and care for so much, and but I like the idea that the the good of it, the good of it, like the essence good of it never never really never really goes, you know. And so all the good doesn't matter, even if you don't see a product, or even if you don't, even if the person is God, that that good is always there.

Are hope and faith the same thing?

I think they're very, very close, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, dude. That's what it is. I was like, I mean, for me, I was like, how come you don't how come that word hope, like I don't I don't see in whatever like Hindu literature that I've read, which uh I'm like even some of the other stuff, I'm like, you don't see hope. But you do see faith. You do see you do see faith a lot. Faith and devotion.

It feels like and faith you're supposed to have, and it feels like hope is like like it's it's not in reaching distance. Yeah, it's a little bit out there, whereas faith is something a little bit new.

Ah, that's cool. Thanks, thanks for that that kind of tweak tweaking. Yeah, that's pretty good.

That's what it kind of feels like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah, well, yeah. So we hope uh, you know, for anyone out there watching this, we hope uh you know you've enjoyed the discussion. Uh and if you haven't seen the Shaw Shank Redemption, you should, because it's a great movie.

And then watch the Green Mile right after.

Come by Rockaway Beach, we'll go for a surf. So until next time, this is Chuck Rafree Radio signing off.